Interview with David Dieterle, President of the Michigan Council on Economics Education
Announcer: Welcome to Inside Michigan Education, a weekly show featuring interviews with community leaders, school administrators, school business officials, and individuals, who are passionate about the future of Michigan education. And now, here is your host for Inside Michigan Education, Rob Huisingh.
Rob Huisingh: Welcome to Inside Michigan Education. This week we are joined in the Foxbright Podcast Studio by David Dieterle. David is the president of the Michigan Council on Economic Education, also known as the MCEE and this is an organization focused on providing leadership and promoting and strengthening economic education in our State. Welcome David, it's great to have you on the show.
David Dieterle: Welcome Rob, glad to be here, thank you, thanks for having me.
Rob Huisingh: David, I like to begin the show usually by having our guest tell us a little bit about your background and so on. So why don't you tell us who you are and how did you come to be in the position that are you are in?
David Dieterle: Well I began my education carrier in Mt. Pleasant as an elementary school teacher, spent a few years in 3rd grade, 5th grade, 6th grade; and while I was teaching 5th and 6th grade Social Studies, I got interested in this crazy thing called Economics and as a result I started to -- I had an opportunity at that point to go to Purdue University, get a Masters in Economics and so I actually interrupted my Doctoral work, I went to Purdue, did my Economics work and then came back and finished my Doctorate in Teacher Education and Curriculum in Economics at Michigan State and then began to bounce around in the Midwest, if you will, left Michigan for a while, but in 1999 I decided I wanted to come back and had the opportunity to do so and so I joined council in September 1999. So I am just about coming up on my 9-year anniversary here, so it has been a fun ride.
Rob Huisingh: Why don't you tell us a little bit about the MCEE and its overarching objectives?
David Dieterle: The Michigan Council on Economic Education, Rob, has been around since 1979, so again we are coming up on, kind of, a birthday itself of 30 years, but the Council was originally established to really, kind of, oversee, I use the term, gatekeeper, if you will, to kind of oversee this broad measure of economic education in our Michigan -- initially in our K-12 schools. In the last few years we have broadened it. We do work with adults now and some adult literacy programs, but our primary focus continuous to be K-12 education and primarily in the area of professional development. We do a lot of work with K-12 teachers in doing two things. There is an old adage, "Teachers can't teach what they don't know and students can't learn, what they aren't taught," and so if the teachers don't know it they won't teach it and if they don't teach it the kids can't learn it.
So as a result of that a major focus of ours is the area of professional development. So through a regional network of University-based and college-based Centers for Economic Education across the State, we have about 11 professors; we have roughly another dozen or so educators who work closely in partnership with the Intermediate School Districts across the State, work very closely with many of the Districts across the State in the area of professional development to address both those issues. So, one, making teachers making sure teachers are comfortable and confident with this strange thing called Economics that many of them have really not had an opportunity to take a class or be part of in that regard.
So, with Economics being an integral part of the Social Studies as it has been, that it at all of a sudden has kind of been thrust upon them and so there are many of them where the hair stands up on the back of their neck and they are going, "what do I do?" and that is, kind of, where we come in.
So the number one focus is Professional Development with the teachers across the State. Secondly, we do a lot of curriculum alignment. A lot of our professors, a lot of educators working with school districts, who are working in the area of curriculum alignment and in today's world here in Michigan, obliviously, how do we best integrate the great level of content expectations, the course high school content expectations in this new world and integrate those at the high school level, anyway. How do we integrate it with the new high school graduation requirements?
So there's a lot of that, it is beginning and which I am sure you are very aware of, so a lot of that. So we are very involved in that. The other component that we are involved in relative to K-12 education is-- economic education is kind of a broad term and a lot of people have a lot different definitions to what that means. Well there is really kind of three camps; when you look through our literature a lot of times, when I use the terms economic education all of a sudden, I'll parenthetically broaden it out.
Now the three camps are Economic is as you and I may have had it; we have had it in college standard, understanding our Economy, what is our private market system? How do we have free enterprise, and how does that influence and have an appreciation and understanding of what our Economy is all about and why we've been the world leaders, economic leaders for 200 years.
Secondly though, it was personal finance and that, kind of, is the buzzword today and so that area; how do we deal in a good, efficient, effective way with our personal finances.
And then, thirdly, is entrepreneurship education and its role relative to economic development in a state, which as all of us know, is critical to Michigan's turnaround and given the situations, the current environment that we are in.
So the Council, I kind of said a mouthful there, but the whole point is the Council really, kind of, oversees all three of these of areas, focusing in the area of professional development, focus with the school districts in the area of curriculum alignment and then how do we measure that and then thirdly, Rob, how do we make sure that the materials and the programs that are going into the classrooms are quality.
Quality in two ways; what I call "squeaky clean economics" it's good sound fundamental, it's a basic, and what every citizen young or old needs to have a proper understanding of our Economy and their role in our economic society and then along with that, then is making sure that the programs are pedagogically sound; that there is a good educational base behind it and that's where many of our professors come in.
I might add our Center Directors out there across the State, those 11 professors I mentioned, about half of them were Economists, out of Economics Departments and about half are educators, professional educators coming out of education departments.
So, we have a very nice blend when we approach and this is where we really can take on this role as the gatekeeper of really looking at these programs from both an economic point of view and an educational point of view. They do not always agree, which is it always makes for the interesting discussions.
Rob Huisingh: As in Economics today.
David Dieterle: Exactly, exactly.
Rob Huisingh: Alright, let's talk a little bit about the professional development side of what you do; how is that you bridge out to professional development and what services are available?
David Dieterle: We, really, again, Rob, we have kind of a multifaceted approach to professional development and, again, it comes back to that notion of, one, getting teachers to understand Economics as a science. So, most of our centers, every summer will hold some kind of summer course or an institute; we do some things at the Council level relative to the State-wide environment and also partner with a couple of organizations and I'll mention one, because it's near and dear to my heart. The Foundation for Teaching Economics; it's an organization out of California. I am one of their National Teaching Fellows that's why I wanted to get that in there, but anyway, but we do partner with them. So first and foremost we do in the area of Economics and the discipline teaching teacher's Economics through summer institutes and these courses.
So, we have that first facet of the professional development. The second facet focuses in, on what happens in the classroom and here is where we might be doing -- we might have our in-services teaching teachers how to do a program, how to conduct a program or implement some program in the classroom. One of our more popular ones is an elementary program called Mini-Society and, again, this is a partnership we have had the last few years with Kauffman Foundation, it is very interdisciplinary entrepreneurship education, grades four through seven; although, here in the State, most of the teachers that are conducting Mini-Society programs are probably are in the grades five and six area, but again that's a three-day getting teachers with professional trainers that really work with the teachers so that they understand how to take Mini-Society and get the most out of it in there classroom.
So we have those kinds of programs; and then thirdly, also on the program side, just our Center Directors will work with School Districts, our Educator Associates will work with School Districts to help them implement a program. Something that we have deemed appropriate; that we endorse, a program that we endorse. So we'll help them. Again, it's a classroom ultimate, where it is specific to a program.
Let me add here too, one of our major initiatives over the next four years is this very issue relative to programs, and with all of the discussions going on about the grade level of content expectations and everything that's going on. How do the teachers in the classroom begin to make those integrations? I taught for a couple of years Social Studies education up at Central CMU in their teacher education department and one of the things I talked to my students about was, you have got a lot on your plate, especially in those K-6 classrooms, so how do you integrate the Social Studies with the Math and the Language Arts as well as integrating the Civics and the Economics and the Geography and History within the Social Studies, as well as then around it? And so how do you make your classroom more efficient and effective?
One of the programs -- we have received some grant money to do this and I might elaborate on this a little longer, maybe a little later in the program, if we have time. It's basically a CD with about 1,200 lessons for Kindergarten through 12 grade in the area of Economics and we have just done an alignment with that CD. It was produced by our National Affiliate, the National Council on Economic Education funded by State Farm and we just completed an alignment of that CD with the new grade level content expectations.
Rob Huisingh: Very good; let's talk a little bit about the work that your organization is doing with the grade and course content expectations within Michigan.
David Dieterle: Yeah! We were very fortunate to be asked really early on in the process, and I am going to go back several years ago; I was very fortunate to be asked to serve by the Board of Education on a Panel, task force I guess is the term I am looking for, a task force to really look at initially why were the Social Studies MEAP scores at the time and they, I am afraid to say that they haven't gone much better, but it's early in the game, but several years ago, why they were, where they were at and so we conducted a series of hearing, public hearings around the State. Well that was kind of launching pad for the continuation of beginning to look at moving from the benchmarks, which were four levels to this grade-level content expectations.
So, we have had a very integral part to play and as I said, I've been very pleased the Board of Education then asked and the Department of Education then asked me serve on a couple of committees in the development of that.
Mostly everybody in the educational community around the Social Studies know we had a couple of false starts and so, but it took a while. But at the end I think having been on this -- in the last area I was a consultant for the Elementary Group. I did some consulting work; I wasn't part of that Group, I was a part of that committee for the high school.
So the Council in our network really had an integral part in making sure and again, as this whole thing evolved keeping those two points in front of us and making sure the economics that went in to the grade level of content expectations are squeaky clean, they are foundational, they are fundamental and two, that they were appropriate for their particular grade levels.
Now, I am sure there are some teachers out there, after looking at them would probably take me to task, and have a little bit of disagreement with that, but that's fine; but there is a consistency and alignment to it, a scope and sequence, if you will, as they move through.
So, at the end of the day, with end product that we now have and we are now working with, we are real pleased with it. Now we are continually finding little things and working with the Department of Education and doing some little tweaking here and there, but I am really proud of the finished product.
Rob Huisingh: As we have seen recently, you will know, as I did that three years ago the phone rang every three days with someone that wanted to extend us a mortgage and there is free money to be had and people were getting into homes that they had absolutely no way of paying for it and today we were reaping the benefits of those actions and one can be very clear about the fact that economically education, economic education from a personal finance point of view is extremely important to the United States as well as to our State. What are you doing in that area?
David Dieterle: Yeah that's a great question, Rob, and there is a lot there and a couple of things. One thing in particular and as I mentioned earlier, let me kind of take a step back. I mentioned a little earlier, kind of, defined the term economic education, I mentioned the three areas. Economics, personal finance, and entrepreneurship education; but one of the things that we are really focussed on and I think this comes -- this is what kind of leans us to become this gatekeeper, if you will, in this area, in this whole defining of economic education and that is one of things that we really are working hard at doing is combining the basic principles of all three groups. So to take your comment about the mortgages and as we all know what's happened here and that whole thing.
One of the key areas that we teach teachers in the area of economic, there are six key principles and I will not go into the Economic's lesson today. Believe me, as Economics's professor it is hard to do, but I will back off of that, but I will say the last principal of the six-core economic principles; by the way there is a big poster that we do sell for the classroom use, but the last principle is, "All choices have consequences that lie in the future," and what we are experiencing today are the consequences of those choices as you said a couple years ago and the choices of the Federal Reserve relative to monitory policy of what they did and the whole thing.
So there's a lot of variables that are really, kind of, playing in to that, but one of things of what we are trying to do in this area of personal finance is really marriage the basic concepts of economics with the basics in the fundamentals of personal finance and that is the idea that we all choose, every time we make a choice there is a cost and a tradeoff and that there will be a consequence to those in the future and it's building that foundation that we then launch into then the personal finance.
So one of our key roles and one of the things we are really working hard at doing and we do a lot of this when we evaluate programs and we are looking at a lot of materials today, obviously, because of the interest in personal finance is, do the materials began with the fundamental getting the students--or whoever is using the material--Are they getting a fundamental understanding, personally of what it means to make an economic decision? And that is there is a cost involved; that is that there is going to be a consequence to those decisions and if we can start with that foundation first and then from there roll in to all of the other important personal finance ideas and concepts that are out there that we need to know relative to mortgages, credit, and insurance and all though those money management, and financial management, saving and investing.
If we can began with that groundwork we can make some major steps and at least getting people, beginning then to see that when they do make decisions or before they make that decision they will at least take a step back and say, "Okay what's the cost, if I do this?"
David Dieterle: Or what's the consequences, where are the potential consequences intended or unintended that I am going to receive down the way? So we are really working hard to, kind of, marriage some of those foundational economic ideas with the personal finance.
Rob Huisingh: Just as an aside, I can remember, during one of my first economic classes, learning about the Law of Diminishing Returns and thinking afterwards as I walked out of that class how incredibly self-evident that was, but I had never thought about it. The fact that, that economics laid open something to my attention that I purely had, sort of, known earlier, but had never really thought about it and I just thought that it was a very fascinating topic and so it's interesting stuff.
David Dieterle: I get into there with a lot of teachers. I don't do as much of the hands-on work with teachers anymore as I used to, given my role at the Council although that's my love, but I remember, I can quick story, back in the days when I was at University of Cincinnati, I was doing a workshop with a group of teachers and they all seemed excited and they are into this and all of a sudden at a break one of them comes to me and she says, "Yeah this is all fine and good, but when am I supposed to do this. I have got this, this, you know..." and she -- the typical rattles off the half dozen things, which I know she had and it was very true, but what you just said, I said to her I'll bet you I can come in one hour in your classroom and identify six things that you are already doing that you are teaching an economic concept and some basics to the students, you just don't realize you are doing it because you don't understand the economics and she invited me in, we did it and it was a great experience, but that's very true throughout and we see this, again, all the time even here in Michigan.
Many teachers, great teachers doing great things in the classroom and they are doing wonderful ideas and projects and there's already a lot of economics out there for a lot of them it is just an enlightenment of what some of these basic economic concepts are and then their professional juices take over and it's kind of like, "Oh!" the light bulb comes on and they have got an economic lesson, when in fact they haven't really changed anything in their classroom to start with.
Rob Huisingh: David, our primary audience, today, is School Superintendents, business officials, and secondary school principals within the K-12 public education market and some of the private schools as well in charter academies, but what you have to say to those folks here in closing about what it is that you are doing in and how can they get involved and what would you like?
David Dieterle: Well a couple of things, Rob, and I appreciate that opportunity; but let me say upfront too. I want to congratulate the State of Michigan and I really want to pay kudos to Mike Flanigan. I think Mike has stepped in, he stepped in to a really tough situation; and basically, stepped into a situation too with an understanding of where Michigan needs to go educationally relative to not just the global economy, but our other states who we are in competition with, when it comes to the economy of our states. And Mike really stepped up and, I think, this is quite evident with the grade level content expectations, the High school course content expectation, the new high school graduation requirements, and I know there's a lot of debate and a lot of discussion and there is going to be, they are new.
I would be more disappointed, probably, if they weren't any discussion that if they were accepted just, kind of, carte blanche and that would not be good either; so the debate, the discussion is all good.
So let me start with that; and what that does and what Mike has done and with the support of the Department of Education, and the support he received from the Board of Education. He has really, kind of, set the bar for a new Michigan education, for a new tomorrow, not just in economics, but throughout and so first and foremost I am really excited and enthused about what the future is going to hold for Michigan education. I really think we are ahead of the curve. I just hope we don't backslide that's my concern and that's what the discussions and debate will be all about. Now having said that, the other part of that is relative to the high school graduation requirements. In my little world, a piece of that world the fact that economics, a semester of economics is now required, and throughout the State for graduation from the Michigan High School. I think that goes a long way to setting the stage for an appreciation and understanding of where Michigan has been, the troubles and the challenges that we are going through now, and also what the future can be.
So I am really excited about that, and two, that also sets the stage for one thing we haven't touched on, outside of mentioning and that's the role of entrepreneurship and the role of entrepreneurship education in our Michigan schools and it's not necessarily to teach every student to be an entrepreneur, I mean that's -- we have all done the garage sale or we all did the lemonade stand as a kid or those kinds of things, but the fact of the matter is for all of us to have an understanding and appreciation of the role of the entrepreneur - of what they can bring to the State, the productive resources that they can bring to the State because quite frankly most job creation comes from small companies and it comes from the entrepreneur.
So the role of the entrepreneurship education, I think, is vitally important. I think this semester of economic being required really helps us lay some groundwork for both an understanding and appreciating of our market system and in the economy and as I mentioned earlier why we are and how we have been able to be so successful and we will continue to be and then this role of entrepreneurship education and then finally within the high school course content expectations this idea of personal finance as you mentioned, and within those course content expectation is a set of personal finance expectations.
Now the one thing -- there seems to be a little misinformation out there about and that is when we wrote those we set those aside even though they are in the economics. We set them aside and separately for school districts to have the freedom to put them in the discipline, the area of their high school studies that is most conducive for them, most benefit to them. One of things that came out, I had mentioned earlier those public hearings from a few years ago. We had quite a few math teachers, it caught me by surprise actually, but we had a quite a few math teachers who say don't take personal finance away from us. We teach personal finance as one of our Math courses and we want to keep that. I have also had business teachers telling me don't take the personal finance away from us.
So the whole idea was when we laid those out, those personal finance expectations was to give those school districts that independence to put them where maybe they had already have been, if they are not in the social studies so that they can be taught in the business class, so they can be taught in a senior issues class. I won't belabor the point, but we did this little study a few years ago a survey of high schools and found that personal finance is really taught all over the board and a lot in Math classes and in fact there are some legislation now in Lancing and one of the things where we would like some support by the Superintendents across the State.
Senator Switalski purposed a Bill to allow a Personal Finance Course to satisfy the fourth credit for Math. There are four units required for math, three are defined, the fourth one is an elective. His bill would allow a personal finance course to satisfy that fourth Math elective; that would be a very big thing to get that. It passed the unanimously, if I remember right, and it is now kind of waddling in the House. So there's one thing that we could use a lot of support on and that is to help us move that particular piece of legislation to the Governor's desk to see if we could get that signed because that would go a long way in having both the Economics in the social studies and then also Personal Finance and now we have got two and now we have early done a good job.
Rob Huisingh: Well, David, I want to thank you for taking a time to be here and be on our show I appreciate it.
David Dieterle: My pleasure; thank you for asking.
Rob Huisingh: If you would like to learn more about the Michigan Counsel and Economic Education or you have a question about the services that they offer, I invite you to contact them directly at (248) 596-9560. Again, the telephone number is (248) 596-9560 information on MCEE is also available online at www.mceeonline.org again that URL is www.mceeonline.org.
Do you have a story or something interesting that you believe concerns Michigan education, if you do, I invite you to send us your thoughts. You can find us online at www.insidemieducation.com; Until next week, this is Rob Huisingh with Inside Michigan Education.
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