Changes for Kindergarten Instructional Time Requirements in Michigan
Announcer: Welcome to Inside Michigan Education, a weekly show featuring interviews with community leaders, school administrators, school business officials, and individuals, who are passionate about the future of Michigan education. And now, here is your host for Inside Michigan Education, Rob Huisingh.
Rob Huisingh: Welcome to Inside Michigan Education. This week we are joined in the Foxbright Podcast Studio by David Martell, C.P.A., C.F.O. As of January 1, David is the new Executive Director of the Michigan School Business Officials, most commonly referred to as the MSBO. David has joined us today to talk about the new rules regarding kindergarten enrollment and alternative kindergarten programs. Welcome David, congratulations on your position, and welcome on this show.
David Martell: Thank you very much; it's a pleasure to be here; I am looking forward to the discussion.
Rob Huisingh: Before we get into today's topic, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you come to be in the position you are in?
David Martell: Sure. As you said, I was the CPA and I still I am. I graduated from Michigan State University with the Bachelors in Accounting, and went to work for a CPA firm, and after a stint with them and becoming a CPA, I went on to Michigan State University and worked for nine years there in various positions, kind of at the Higher Ed levels of accounting for schools. Then I went to work for Haslett Public Schools which is about a 3,000 enrollment school district just outside of Lansing. I worked there for about ten years, and then was also, during that time was on the Board of Directors of MSBO, and a position became open at MSBO and it was really a logical step for me to move towards that position. I have been at MSBO for about four-and-a-half years now, and just ticking on the new challenges of being the Executive Director.
Rob Huisingh: David, specifically last year, the Michigan Legislature in cooperation with Governor Granholm, they implemented changes around kindergarten and alternative kindergarten programs with regard to enrollment age and instructional time requirements. Can you give us an overview of the changes that they implemented?
David Martell: Sure. I think, I will focus more on the actual changes in the enrollment, and how schools are paid for the amount of time that they educate kids. For Michigan, right now, districts are paid a full FTE for students at the kindergarten level, but they are only forced to go a half FTE; in other words, a half a day. Some districts have decided to go ahead and educate a full day, but many, many districts are educating kindergarten children for half a day, which for many people feel that's very appropriate, others feel a full day would be helpful, especially for at risk kids, who were going to be in a daycare setting otherwise. But it's the financing side of things that's causing a problem for schools.
Rob Huisingh: So David, how is this likely to affect public schools here in Michigan?
David Martell: Well Rob, as you know, public schools have been dealing with budget issues for quite a while, and while this is a great idea to have a kindergarten go full day, right now the reality is that schools just can't afford it. This is talking about costing hundreds or thousands of dollars of additional cost for each school district that has to implement this, and the districts have been dealing with this issue for quite a while, and feel like they have been dealing with it in a most positive way. Some districts are doing full day kindergarten, others have felt it's not as important, and that they have had other priorities for their district, and they know that they are being successful at educating kids at the kindergarten level this way.
They are fearing that they will have to end up cutting their DK programs or Developmental Kindergarten Programs, or their "Early 5's," in order to make room for this kind of a program, and so they are wondering whether or not they are going to be forced to get rid of a very positive program in order to implement another positive program. But at a point when they don't feel like -- the second program is really going to help them any more, I don't know how better to say that, but certainly they are getting very frustrated as I have talked to people I know that, you get a group of Superintendents together, and they just don't know what to do next. They just can't afford it, they don't know where to look to cut in their programs in a normal way, but they'll all of a sudden be able to have to deal with having your programs cut by 50% on your kindergarten level and somehow deal with that, they are very, very frustrated.
Rob Huisingh: I know that if we were to talk to Governor Granholm, that she would tell you that education is one of her primary focuses, and that surely she must believe and have believed that this was a positive influence on Michigan schools, or she wouldn't have supported and championed the legislation. Is there any way for our school districts to reach out and to let her know, just what effect this is having.
David Martell: Well certainly, individual school districts usually have a spokesperson, whether that's the Superintendent, or the business official, or somebody like that. They can certainly make their voices known and be heard. Governor Granholm really has supported education, and really you can see the positiveness that this could have on particular districts. But it's almost that one size doesn't fit all, and without the funding that goes with it, I think it's going to be a hardship for schools to implement. So schools can take the opportunity to talk to the legislators, talk to the governors office, and let their voices be heard. it is certainly a frustrating time for many business officials, but certainly superintendents and principals as well, as they try to deal with these on going educational issues.
Rob Huisingh: Well, if I understand correctly, the thought process behind changing the legislation is not being touted as a way for the district to, or for the state to save money. I mean, this was proposed as a way of improving education, and that if you are going to have a kindergarten that they are actually desiring that it should be a full day of kindergarten, am I correct in that assumption, or is it truly just a way for the state to save money?
David Martell: Well, I think as every district and every legislator is looking at how they can deal with the lack of funding, that it just became an issue of how come we are paying only a half FTE, or only going to school for half a day and getting a full FTE, it didn't seem right. And it's simply I think a situation where folks really don't know how proposal they started, and why the funding is the way it is.
Rob Huisingh: So as we look forward, I guess, the concern that we are all looking at is for school districts that have traditionally had perhaps one room with one kindergarten teacher, and they have two classes that are running in that room, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, that the state is now mandating that -- and well prior to this point, that actually equaled probably 60 students worth of full FTE, and now that's going to be 30 students of FTE, am I correct in that assumption?
David Martell: That's correct, and I guess one thing that I probably should have said earlier ,and I will go ahead and say now, is that most educators believe that this would be good thing for kids that a full day of kindergarten developmentally will be good for school kids, especially at-risk kids. It's really an issue of funding and being able to afford it, and it's almost, it's not an actual mandate, because districts do not have to educate at the kindergarten level. It's rather a change in the way the state is funding for those kids you do educate, and so it's a hardship on schools that they are just not in a place right now to actually absorb.
Rob Huisingh: What actually is the recommendation of the MSBO, towards the member schools, towards the schools that are within our listening audience?
David Martell: Well, our recommendation is, as we take a look at this issue, if districts can afford it, they have done some things about adding full-day classes for certain students. But in our work with Michigan districts and with our business managers, those districts who have done it already, have done it because they have decided, because they have to, because of competitiveness with fellow or surrounding districts that are doing it, or a district that has at-risk kids, has gotten extra funding through the federal government for Title 1, or from the state at-risk funding, where they have been able to use those funds to help pay for the added cost of teachers and space to be able to provide full day kindergarten, and actually help those kids at risk to do better in school. And so, as we take a look at this, it becomes an issue for us more of local control of allowing the districts who have budgetary issues to decide what's the best way for those districts to educate their kids.
In some districts that might be full day kindergarten and we did a survey, and we had over 300 districts respond, and 44% of districts already provide full day kindergarten to their kids, and so what's the issue with the other 56%. It maybe that they have decided that if for them to allow a full day kindergarten, for all the kindergarten students, would take away from other very important aspects of the educational process in that district. We all know that different districts get different FTE, or different Foundation Allowances, or different amounts of funding per student based on the formulas that were in place back in 1994, that has changed over time somewhat, but there still is some big differences between what schools receive from the state for educating kids, and so some districts are in much better shape to offer more educational opportunities than the others. There is still an equity issue that surfaces from time to time with Michigan schools.
Rob Huisingh: Okay. I just want to make sure that I understand what your interpretation of the government's path here is. There actually, there is an equity issue that they are trying to address, which is, they believe that if you aren't educating a student for a full FTE, you shouldn't receive a full FTE in terms of, payment for that. And that's maybe the first issue. But the second issue is that they are actually trying to encourage schools to have a full day kindergarten, and am I correct in that assumption?
David Martell: I think that's true, and I think that's where the Governor supports this proposal, that's now have been enacted that we're going to affect in the future. And most of the education communities supported it as well. There is I guess comes a time where you have to do things even though you can't afford them, and maybe some individuals have reached that point, and they are wanting to push it even though schools can't afford it. But from my aspect, it's simply looking at our districts and what they can afford, and letting them make that decision at a local level to determine whether or not they can afford to run a program like this.
Rob Huisingh: One of the districts that I was talking to, they were saying that based on number of classrooms that they have, that they absolutely are -- they are facing the fact that they may have to cut their "Early 5's," and is this something that you would see as a trend where they are basically going to have to make all day kindergarten, and therefore they are going to have to cut the "Early 5's" program?
David Martell: Well, in "Early 5's" program, also was kind of talked about as a Developmental Kindergarten. So many districts are going to take a look at their program this upcoming year, and make a decision whether they are going to run it or not. Because they will no longer receive a full foundation allowance for each one of those kids. So there may be some going away simply because they can't afford to run the program that way anymore, if they are not going to get a full FTE funding for them. On a long term basis, then yes, I think there are all kinds of issues that schools have to deal with when they deal with the cost of going to a full day kindergarten.
Many things are obvious, like the fact that you would have to hire more teachers, but you would also have to have more space. In a district that has declining enrollment may have the space, and so it's not as much of an issue. But those districts who don't have the extra space, or who are growing and have to add classrooms, that's a significant amount of funding as necessary to do that, and we are fearful that there will be a number of districts that have to actually go out and go into a bond issue situation where you are going to ask voters to fund a new school, because -- or at least additions to many other schools, so that they can have the space available to actually do a full day kindergarten. Because as you think about it, and as you mentioned earlier, a district is as efficient as possible, and they run one teacher having an AM Kindergarten and a PM Kindergarten. And so when you all of sudden say, each teacher has to run a full day kindergarten, and you have to double the amount of classrooms, double the amount of teachers, teaching supplies, all the set ups.
Rob Huisingh: With the same amount of money?
David Martell: With the same amount of money.
Rob Huisingh: It's not possible.
David Martell: It's not possible, it is possible, but what you set up is a situation where districts and boards are trying to decide on what else not to do, and able to do for their kindergarten. And so I think, if the funding was there, you would see a much different situation where this would be embraced wholeheartedly. And I think, like I said, most people understand that this is probably in the best interest of most kids. I think there are still some kids that aren't ready for full day, and their parents don't want a full day. But most parents do, from what we've heard, and I have seen over the years. And it would be a great thing to do for those who would like it, if there was funding that could help pay for it.
Rob Huisingh: I think one of the concerns that I've heard from school districts is that once you go to a full day kindergarten, and if the "Early 5's" Developmental Kindergarten is cut, a lot of schools used "Early 5's" and Development Kindergarten as a place to ready students for the rigor of kindergarten. And that once they -- I know it sounds odd to say rigor of kindergarten, but actually this is a place where they get the students ready, and once they are ready, then they move into the kindergarten system.
Now you're going to have students that are coming in, and they're going to drop right into the kindergarten session, and it's going to be sink or swim. And they are anticipating that this is going to have long-term ramifications on their ability to educate students.
David Martell: The other thing that would happen as well, is the natural tendency as for those teachers to help accommodate the kids that aren't quite ready. And what that will mean is that other kids in the classroom who are ready may not get the attention or the progress that they would have seen otherwise. So while the intention might be very admirable, you may have situations where some of the students who aren't ready better in the same classroom, may effect the progress of the rest of the kids. I mean, that would maybe be a negative way to look at it, but certainly we're trying to see all aspects of this situation.
Rob Huisingh: I was attending a School Board Meeting recently, and one of the school officials mentioned quite clearly that we are not judged on how well we do with our great students, we are judged on how well we do with our struggling students. And that's how we're judged, and that's where we have to spend our time. Interestingly, you would also call attention to that. Is there anything more that you would like to share with our listening audience on this topic or other?
David Martell: Well, one thing that I will pass on, is that we did do a survey with our members trying to see what the issues would be as part of this, and one of the things we noted is, of the districts who were not offering full day kindergarten right now, there was 112 districts that responded to our survey that they were not in that mode. And they basically identified cost that they would incur if they had to implement this.
And it came to about $67.5 million. And so we are talking about a significant amount of money for about a 112 districts. And so as you would take that and extrapolate it out to the districts who didn't respond, we really are looking at some huge dollars. And it's a great program I think, and I think it deserves our support. But it deserves the support of the financial side as well, that we get funding to help change schools to a full day kindergarten from a half day.
Rob Huisingh: Is there anything that people can do today to get involved in shaping this issue, is there anything that can be done still?
David Martell: Well, from a lobbying standpoint, MSBO is not a lobbying organization. But certainly we tried to talk to our members and help them understand what might be a way to go forward. We would simply say that if a district would be hurt by this situation, they should talk to their legislators, if they are not the superintendent, maybe talk to the superintendent, and see what their issues are, and how they might be going forward? Because as we approach, next week we have the Revenue Consensus Conference at the end of this week, and by the time that you broadcast this, I think it'll be in the past.
But we really expect to see some really harsh economic situations for schools, looking at the 09-10 School Year, our next school year, where schools may not see any increase in their foundation allowance, and all their expenses going up. So this is the kind of the worse time for us try to implement a proposal like this. And so hopefully it will be a time where the state will look at that as well, and the legislature will say, this is a good idea, but the time is just not right, right now, and that maybe this is something we can push off to the future.
And that's one of the things that these districts are struggling, on whether to lay-off teachers or not, whether to have athletics or not, to all of sudden have a big increase in one level of schools at the detriment of another level of schools, then it maybe not the right time to progress on this.
Rob Huisingh: Yeah, anything going on with the MSBO in the near future that you would like to share?
David Martell: Sure, MSBO, one of our main focus is, is professional development of our members. Trying to help our members really as they become, they're accountants already, or they're facility people are ready, we try to help them do a better job in the school environment, and bring them up to speed in the school environment. One of the conferences we have coming up in the middle of this month on January 21st and 22nd, is our school Finance Conference, Financial Strategies Conference that we run, and that is the conference that helps our school business officials deal with the budgeting agenda coming up, and also negotiations, and so it's one of the things I will remind our members to sign up for.
And then our Annual Conference this year is at the end of April, and this would be the first year that we are going to be in Detroit. We feel that as Detroit goes, the whole state goes, and so, we are in a mode of trying out Detroit, and we are really excited about it. They have done a lot of good things downtown, Detroit. And so, we would ask our members to take a look at that, and anybody else in the listening audience.
Rob Huisingh: Well, David I want to thank you for taking the time to be on our show. I know you drove over today, and specifically to be here, and it's been a pleasure, and I hope you will join us again.
David Martell: Certainly will, it's been a pleasure for me as well, and it's good to be able to talk about the issues that our schools are dealing with, and I would be happy to do it anytime.
Rob Huisingh: Thank you. If you would like to learn more about the MSBO, I invite you to visit their website at www.msbo.org, again that URL is www.msbo.org. If you would like to contact Davis Martell, please call 517-327-5920, again, that telephone number is 517-327-5920. If you have a story about something that you find interesting, or that you think we would find interesting in education in Michigan; well, if you do, I invite you to share your thoughts with us. You can contact you us online at www.insidemieducation.com. Again, that the URL is www.insidemieducation.com. Until next week, this is Rob Huisingh with Inside Michigan Education.
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